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Spin-Off Games Make Absolutely No Sense! | Objectively Bad Podcast #82

• Objectively Bad Studios • Season 1 • Episode 82

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Welcome to the 82nd Episode of the Objectively Bad Podcast! 

In todays episode we discuss the concept of spin-off games! We look at some top lists, discuss what should be considered a spin-off game & Dan complains about Netflix ruining JoJo's Bizarre Adventure once again.

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Intro

SPEAKER_02

Hello there, people. Welcome back to the Objectively Bad Podcast. As always, it's your your boys. Dan and Chad. I'm too tired to think of something more funny or interesting to say.

SPEAKER_00

We're a lackluster today, Dan. What's going on? Uh okay, fair enough. Uh, I guess I'm taking it from here because Dan is frozen, lagged. Um you can't hear what I'm doing, can you?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, not at all. Okay, I was just doing a very long vocal fry. Um, but I don't think I'm gonna pick display. Yep, alright. What are we gonna talk about? What's what's topics?

Video Game Spin-off List

SPEAKER_00

Chad, say them, please. Yes, uh, topics, we have multiple, and by that I mean we have one. Um today uh we're gonna talk about spin-offs. Uh mostly focusing on video games. Maybe we'll get to other sorts of spin-offs. Um, but I uh I I I kind of started this, and you know, some of the episodes we've done that have done well, some of the concepts we've done that we've enjoyed are uh I'll pull up a list, you gotta guess the list. I thought I had a really good idea of spin-offs. And I think in my in my eyes, when I thought about a video game spin-off, I had pretty strict criteria of like it had to have been a main series, so you have to have like I don't know, at least three games. But it's gotta be like if you talk about GTA, there's a clear main series. If you talk about Pokemon, there's a clear main series, like it's mostly that, and then there's the occasional spin-off. Uh take Uncharted, for example. There's four Uncharted games. There's some like PSP. I don't even know if they're I count them as a spin-off, because like it's the same. Actually, I don't I I could be wrong. I think it's the same characters, but it's like that one's a spin-off in the sense of um it's just made for a different console. But like you have uncharted one, two, three, and four. And then you have uncharted the lost legacy. I'd say it's a spin off, but you don't play as Nathan Drake. It's a bit of a shorter game, it's not within the main like title series, but it's a very clear spin-off, and then it didn't become its own thing. Um, so I was gonna have we were gonna talk about spin-offs, we're gonna talk about ones we liked, and we still will. Um but before we do any of that, I have to get my gripes out of the way. Alright, I looked into this, I got genuinely annoyed by this for no good reason. I shouldn't have, but I just thought I had a good idea here, and Screen Rant clearly had me wrong. Um, because I disagree with their definitions. So I pulled up a top ten list of screen uh on on screen rant of side, you know, spin-off games. Side games. It they're real fucking vague with their spin-offs. Um the first one that comes up, World of Warcraft. It is a spin-off of Warcraft. And to some degree, if spin-offs become if they're if they're if they're good enough to make a top 10, they're often good enough to just make their own franchise or their own mainstay. So that's a lot of what ends up on this list. Uh the next game that came was Red Dead 2. Now, Dan, what are the games in the Red Dead world?

SPEAKER_02

Well I not that I've played them, but I know that there is Red Dead 1, Red Dead 2, and previously Red Dead Revolver, which I'm pretty sure is kind of like the the same thing, but just a different story.

SPEAKER_00

Uh to my knowledge, it's just a more linear version of Red Dead. It's a little less open world, but it's, you know, same concept. Red Dead 2 shows up as number 9, and it's like it's a great spin-off from Red Dead Revolver. You can't spin off one game. I mean you can, I guess, but like I don't think there's enough of a difference that you would call it a spin-off. You also I also just like it's not a franchise if it's one game.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I I don't know how closely related they are. I don't know if they take place like does it take place in the same world?

SPEAKER_00

Let me look. Let me I'm reading this article, and it's like, though they share some similarities, Red Dead Revolver was a more linear experience and not what someone would expect if you told them it was part of the Red Dead series proper. While both Red Dead and its sequel are great games, if I had to choose one to be uh that's actually not that relevant. They just choose Red Dead to a game.

SPEAKER_02

It does seem that they they do take place in different universes or canons. But they also kind of like almost the exact same game, just slightly different.

SPEAKER_00

It's also, I don't know, again, in my eyes, I just felt like the the you it's I don't know, you can't spit off of one game. I guess in this case they did, but I don't even count as a spin-off because now I'd argue Red Dead Redemption 1 and 2 is the main series, and I think that's been my biggest gripe is like it feels like now in this moment of time, it has to not be considered the main series, and I think that's where a lot of these go. Like World of Warcraft feels like the main series to me, even though it came from Warcraft.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I mean Warcraft 1, 2, and 3, then there's no more Warcraft games, it's just World of Warcraft at this point now.

SPEAKER_00

And that's the thing, like they just uh another one that comes up that that bothered me was The Sims 4. I'm sorry, at what point is it not a spin-off game when it's the fourth one?

SPEAKER_02

I I was just about to say, because I'm looking at the list as well. So I didn't actually know that SimCity was uh before The Sims, to be honest. And for the longest time, I thought Sim City was the I thought that was the spin-off of The Sims. Because like it's the smaller, it's a smaller game, less people play it. Uh I don't know if they're necessarily I don't think there are less SimCity games, there are quite a lot of them. Uh but Sim The Sims is like the main one now, like absolutely for sure. So people have playing Sims 4 for years. Yeah, calling that a spin-off is a is a little weird. Like on a technical level, yes, they made it because they made something else first, and they took some of the things in that and spun it off to create a new idea. So by the technical definition, sure, it's a spin-off. But it it feels like it's like I think with the World of Warcraft example, it feels less like a spin-off and more just like a sequel or like a progression. Same with like Red Dead Revolver. Like it's like saying Um I I said this before we started the podcast. Saying World of Warcraft is a spin-off of Warcraft is like saying GTA Online is a spin off of GTA 5. Because it's it basically just like World of Warcraft, I've never played it, but I know enough. It's basically just an online version of the Warcraft franchise with like more stuff in it. Because like it takes place in the same world. There are some of the same like characters in there, the same like concepts, it's just an it's just an MMO version of it that takes place, I guess, at a different time slightly. Um, which is exactly what GTA Online is to GTA 5. It's not a spin-off, it's just an online progressed version of it.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so the Sims comes up at number seven. We we've touched on 10 and 9. Number eight is Persona 5 of Royale adds life to the Shin Megami Tensei series. Again, I hit a point where even though, like, from what I've seen, Persona did spin off of this in a way, when you're at Persona 5, is it a spin-off or is it just simply its own franchise at that point? Because I just see that as its own franchise.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I guess the I guess the question is can a can a spin off be its own franchise without and still be a spin-off?

Spin-off Movies

SPEAKER_00

I guess it is it is it can be both. I guess I don't know. I guess what when really when I first went into this, I was thinking games that were almost solely like one game. Maybe they spawned a couple, but they're still like the lesser of the main franchise, which brings me into number six.

SPEAKER_02

I I haven't watched any Star Wars movies, but is like Rogue One a spin-off or one of those other movies a spin-off of the main Star Wars franchise?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's such a good question. I mean, if you want to say like what is the main like franchise movies, it's the nine movies. It's the original, the prequel, and the sequel trilogy. Rogue One I would say it's more of a prequel than it is a spin-off because it really directly relates to uh like it it literally, like the very end of it almost seamlessly goes into a new hope. Right. So I'd almost say it's a prequel. Whereas I'm trying to think of what would be a spin-off. It would have to be something that's like completely unrelated or like mostly unrelated to the main plots of the movie.

SPEAKER_02

Well, then how about the main movie? Talking about the MCU in isolation from comics, because obviously that's a whole different thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Are the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies a spin off of Civil War? Because that's where he kind of gets introduced from and then they make a franchise out of that.

SPEAKER_00

Uh I also say no, but that's such a hard one because I don't feel like any outside of like Infinity War to Endgame, no singular movie is a part of like I would just say they're all main franchise movies.

SPEAKER_02

Is is Loki a spin-off? Uh what about the Hawkeye TV show? What about um what about One Division? I feel like though, I feel like those are spin-offs.

SPEAKER_00

But what are they spinning off? Like, are we saying the mainline like Avengers movies are the main thing? And then because that would mean the majority of the movies are spin-offs.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think Loki Thor specifically, he only appears in one Avengers movie? I think.

SPEAKER_00

Uh he appears in Thor, he appears in the Avengers. I think he appears in Thor 2. Yeah, but like he's in all Thor movies.

SPEAKER_02

But he's never a main character. He's the main villain, but he's never the main character. And then they have a show where he now is the main character. Is that not what like a Luigi's mansion is or a warrior where it's what you I see what you mean, and I am gonna agree with you.

SPEAKER_00

But it it then begs the question like, how what is the ratio of main franchise to spin-offs in this definition of the MCU?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I I've looked at the definition of spin-off. So we have two definitions here. Uh the first one talks about companies, but we can just uh apply it to games or movies, whatever. Um uh of a parent company turn a sys a subsidiary into a new separate company. That's one definition. Well, I think the one that works better for what we're talking about is a byproduct or incidental result of a larger project. Say they specify of a larger project. So when we're talking about like Persona or Sims or World of Warcraft, the spin-off is now kind of the larger thing. Yeah, yeah. Does that does that rescind its does that rescind its um spin-off status?

SPEAKER_00

It's it's almost like it it started as a spin-off, but then became its own franchise. So then it lost the spin-off like definition, but that doesn't take away its connection to another thing. But you would almost instead of say like, oh, it's spun off from it, like that's not its relation, it's just it came from it and then became its own thing.

SPEAKER_02

It's like is is Spider-Man 2 a prequel or a sequel? Which one is it? Because it's it's both, it's a prequel to Spider-Man 3, but it's a sequel to Spider-Man 1.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like in in issues like this, you have to set a start time. Like like take Star Wars, where there are both sequels and prequels. You take the start of Star Wars at typically a new hope, and anything before then is a prequel, anything after that's a sequel. I I in this instance, Spider-Man 2 is a sequel. It's also really hard to be called a prequel when you have two in the name, but I guess Star Wars 1, 2, and 3 are prequels, so who fucking knows?

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Uh I'm really trying to like be hard and fast on my definition here, but also coming up with it on the spot, which is a great, great spot for us to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like we had another episode where we try to figure out the definition of something and we couldn't figure it out.

SPEAKER_00

Uh I feel like it was like a fantasy episode or something like that, where we were like, what's the difference between fantasy and sci-fi? Yeah. I think so, yeah. Anyways, um, back to me complaining about Screen Rant. Because it's just all where this is coming from. So the so number six on here is Pokemon Snap. And this is where I start to agree with it more because there is a clear mainline uh Pokemon series. Pokemon has defined what the mainline series is, at least to a degree, in that it's there's generations, it's the main games of the generations, they have a particular formula, but Pokemon has a lot of spin-off games. Most don't have the popularity, and I think that's also a part of it where it's like the popularity of the main franchise is what keeps it the main franchise outside of some of the other rules where you take Persona, Persona's massive. Yep, that popularity takes it away from it being deemed a spin-off.

SPEAKER_02

I I might bring up a point that's gonna annoy you. And I it might be on this, it might be on this list as well. I haven't read the whole list, but you don't have to. Technically, all of Mario is a spin-off.

SPEAKER_00

Actually, I've so I also don't I delved into Reddit a bit to see to get people's opinions. Like technically, yes. Because it's from Donkey Kong. It is from Donkey Kong, so everything is a spin-off in that realm. Again, I think it's that you almost have to like you you almost can't. Hmm. I think you could say something spun off from something, but Mario spun off from Donkey Kong, but I'm not gonna say that Mario is a Donkey Kong spin-off. Does that make sense? No, like in the past, I know what I'm saying, like verb, but logically, no, it makes no sense. It spun off from it, but I wouldn't give it the definition of a spin-off because it because it has become its own franchise, and I think that's where I get at is like, is something a more single entity or a not completed entity that is like directly related to a bigger thing, or has it become its own thing? Because once it's become more of its own thing, like persona, I don't think it's a spin-off of that thing. I think at a point in time it spun off, past tense, but at its current moment, it is not a spin-off. So at what it is become its own thing, it's just connected to something else.

Abstract Spin-offs

SPEAKER_02

So at what point in your life do you stop becoming a spin-off from your parents and become your own thing?

SPEAKER_00

That's such a good question, and I love that. Um, I mean it's gonna depend on everyone, because okay, one argument is financials, typically, like you're 18, or whenever you move out, you've spun off of them financially. Feasibly, whenever you do it. Um, it doesn't have to be 18, but 18 is often uh the case, or maybe when you finish college, depending on the person. Um, so I'd say like financially and like response responsibility-wise, accountability-wise, you spin off from your parents in that way. I guess if we're talking personality, I think that's so dependent on the person. Because some people remain like their parents forever. I mean, I think we all to some degree are like our parents in a way. We were raised by them.

SPEAKER_02

Well, but it's one thing I've noticed, and I think I've seen I think I've seen people talk about this, but I've noticed it firsthand, and uh, if my mother sees this, she will hate me for saying it. But the older my mom has got, the more she acts like her mom.

SPEAKER_00

Oh and honestly, honestly, I hope she's not listening. Honestly, I don't I don't know her, but like I feel like that's just such a brutal dig to literally anything.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but even even me, I feel like the older I'm getting, I'm I notice like a c a few times a year, I I'll do something and I'll go, like, God, I sound so much to my dad. What am I doing?

SPEAKER_00

Uh I've done that before.

SPEAKER_02

And I know I notice it happening, and it's like I haven't lived with my parents for like six years. It's like, why am I becoming more like them when I'm not near them?

SPEAKER_00

What's going on? It's a weird, it's a it's a weird thing, isn't it? No, I kind of agree with you. I have moments where I'm like, that's totally a thing my dad does, and I just did that. Um, I I think that's uh I I that does does definitely happen. I mean, look, if you have a similarity to a thing, but you're not that thing, that doesn't, you know, doesn't mean you're a spinoff. I guess if we're going back to my argument of spin-off, is when have you become your own entity? And I think that's really up to interpretation. Maybe it's middle school where you start developing more of a personality and you're a lot more annoying because that's how middle school works. Um, and maybe at that point the parents like actually they are their own entity. I'm not really that attached to them. Um, maybe it's high school when you like start gaining some maturity, hopefully, and a little more responsibility. Maybe it's college when you leave. I I think whenever I don't know. I think I think it bad answer, not bad answer, but like non-definitive answer, it's kind of it depends on the person.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So does it def does it depend on the franchise? So, okay, let's get let's get into the into the roots here. So if there was, let's say, um, let's say we have the franchise uh what's a what's a game? Let's say The Last of Us. There's two main games that are really good, super popular. Let's say there was a spin-off where you play as uh just someone else in The Last of Us World. Sure. Just some other survivor. And it's a it's a very small game. It's maybe it's like top down, it's kind of like different, differently presented. Maybe it's it's even like a base builder tower defense inside the last of us world. Fuck it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But there are six of them, but they're not that popular. They're just kind of like like like like they get like less than 10 times like less than 10% of the of the audience that the main franchise gets, but there's like six of them. Would you still consider them spin-offs?

SPEAKER_00

Oh god, that's such a good question. Because that that that ties it two of my points. Because one of them is popularity. Yep. And one of them is longevity, I guess, or like amount. Yeah. Um I think again it kind of I I'm trying to pull the focus on when does something become its own entity and its own personality. It's got its own kind of like thing going for it. And I think if it's not that popular, I think you can still call it spin-offs. Even if there's a lot of them. If it's still like, you know, the last of us is still getting nine, like the two last of us games are still getting 80 to 90% of the play, like, play time and like I don't know, uh, uh um units sold and all that compared to even like six other games. I still think it's a spin-off game.

SPEAKER_02

Like, could we could we theoretically have maybe not a full definition because it's quite difficult, but part of the definition should need to be that a spin-off game would probably not succeed if not tied to the to the name of the main franchise.

SPEAKER_00

I would say correct. I would say that's definitely a part of it. Because that's the other thing, is like there's a lot of games that are deemed as a spin-off, like like Red Dead 2, if you want to say that. That probably would work what they probably would be successful. You don't need Red Dead Revolver necessarily. I think you need Red Dead 1 because it was pretty popular. You could argue Red Dead Revolver gave them enough money to make Red Dead 1, whatever. We're not gonna get into that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, no, GTA gave them enough money.

SPEAKER_00

Well, true, because it's Rockstar. Yeah, so like we're not gonna go down the route of like technically speaking, you needed this, because like anything that started something is probably important for the most part.

SPEAKER_02

But like the Red Dead The Red Dead Redemption and Red Dead Redemption 2 games are good enough on their own that if Revolver never happened, they probably would have been successful. Yeah, however, a game like Pokemon Snap without the main franchise probably wouldn't be. I don't think it'd do well.

SPEAKER_00

I honestly Pokemon is really driving a lot of my um my answers here, purely because they have a lot of spin off games. And I think it's partially what I was thinking of when I started.

SPEAKER_02

Like Legends, Legends Arceus and Legends DA are spin off. The mystery dungeon games are spin-offs. They are spin-offs. Pokemon goes Pokemon Goes are spin-off.

SPEAKER_00

I'm trying to think if they count. I think the Legends games are technically spin-offs. They're the closest thing to not being spin-offs, though.

SPEAKER_02

They are, but I would say they're spin-they're not part, they're not part of the mainline generation games, and they do have different mechanics inherently. Or they are like they did. They did have mechanic different mechanics, and then for some reason they started to make all the new games almost like identical to them for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_00

Actually, hold up. Hold up. Apparently, um Pokemon Comp the Pokemon Company and Game Freak actually don't consider the Legends games a spin-off. They consider them mainline. Which I think makes sense purely for the sense of A, gameplay-wise, they're very similar. They have some differences, but so do every game. They put a bunch of time into it.

SPEAKER_02

I think when Legends Arceus came out, Arceus, however you want to say it, I think when that came out, it was a spin-off. And I think because of how well it did, they made Legends ZA and it's not anymore. Because when Legends Arceus came out, the mechanics it had were actually like quite quite different to like the recent Pokemon games. Like open world wasn't really a big thing. I think it came out around Sword and Shield. We had like that open world area, but it was still mostly route-based at that point. And then they saw how much people loved it, and now every Pokemon game is just going open world. Scarlet and Violet's Open World, Winds and Waves will be open world, and Legends DA is open world. Which doesn't like I think this is one thing I'm really annoyed at with the Pokemon Nintendo Game Freak company, is that they had this really unique route thing that not many other games did. It was like I thought it was fun, that's what Pokemon was. They decided okay, open world games are something a lot of people would like. People have been asking for a Pokemon open world game for years. So they finally do it with Legends Arceus. They give people this fun open world experience where you can go catch Pokemon, you can see them in the wild and roam around. Awesome. Use that franchise, use the Legends franchise for the open world stuff and keep the route-based stuff for the mainline games that's been doing so well. Because now they just have two, they have two franchises that are both just the same thing. Like there's no distinction between the Legends games and the regular games now, that's because they're just the same. All the mechanics that were in Legends is just in Scarlet Violet for the most part. Like there's no point having them anymore. It's it doesn't make sense to me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, they've almost like started spinoff and then just kind of got pushed into mainline in a way of thinking. At least I think like the po like Game Freak kind of sees it as a mainline. They definitely promoted ZA like a mainline. Like they they've been having competitive, they've been releasing like Pokemon and abilities that will continue within the mainline. So they affect the mainline games for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Which like uh I didn't make sense to me because as well, because like the big thing about Legends Arceus is that it was set in Sinnoh like hundreds, if not thousands of years ago, which also gave it a very distinct feel. Then the next Legends game, they're like, Alright, let's just set it in the exact same time period as black and white or whatever X and Y take place.

SPEAKER_00

Um I think it's I think it's like a couple years after X and Y. But it's like somebody's in the same place, it's in the same city. Yeah, I one thing to also add in favor of them not being spin-offs is they affect the Pokedex. And I don't think the spin-off games really affect the Pokedex. Like Megas that were introduced in ZA and actual like Pokemon that were introduced in Arceus were like added to the national Pokedex.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean I guess we could use I guess we could see it as sort of like a Sims 4 argument. It probably started as a spin-off, but now it's its own thing that's going to be its own like part of the franchise as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I see what you mean because I it's more Arceus is really more of a prequel than it is a spin-off. Because it's it's I think directly related enough to the mainline that it should still be counted as a mainline. I see what you mean in that, like it's called a legends game. It's not like they don't introduce new starters, like they do different things from the mainline games, but it's still kind of a mainline game.

SPEAKER_02

I guess maybe a better comparison is like the legends games to the mainline games is kind of like cod war zone to multiplayer.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, where it's it's in line, it's just parallel rather than being on the line itself. Yeah, but it's not like a branching off thing, it's not that different. Yeah, because Warzone just still like right next to it.

SPEAKER_02

Warzone still has like elements from the story, it has characters from the story and multiplayer, it adds things to the game, but like there's Warzone camos you can get that you can then use in multiplayer, like how the Pokedex can be used. Yeah, I think I'm just annoyed at how po the Pokemon Company has handled Legends and the franchise in general. I think they could have done because like having two unique games with different systems and styles that you can enjoy as separate entities would be great, but now they're kind of just the same thing, and I just I don't really understand what the point was.

Spin-Off List Again

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I don't know. Um, but anyways, back to back to this list. Back to the list. Uh the yes, Pokemon Snap is it comes up. I truly think that fits my definition of a spin-off game. It spins off of a much more popular franchise. It is not as popular as the franchise. There's a ton of Pokemon games that really line up with this. All the mystery dungeons. There's multiple mystery dungeons, but like Pokemon Mystery Dungeon is not as big as mainline Pokemon. Yep. Um, there's Pokemon Pinball, which is a thing. It's it seems vaguely interesting. It's kind of pinball like there's some Pokemon things. It goes back to I like your your added definition or added kind of like point, is that without the main line, would it be successful? Would I ever have found out about Pokemon Pinball if Pokemon didn't exist? Fuck no. Yep. Nor would I have ever thought. I've like vaguely considered by not buying it, playing it. I would have never considered playing it if it was I don't know, Mega Man Pinball. Yep, fair enough. No shade on Mega Man. I just don't play the franchise, but like it wouldn't pull me. So I think this is a really good example of kind of what I want in my criteria of a spin-off game of like it in the in the in like the time right now, it can't have like it can't have counted as a spin-off if it's popular enough that it's considered some franchise like persona. Um with that, I do have the question number five is Mario Kart 8. Yeah, is Mario Kart at this rate a spin-off?

SPEAKER_02

So I think we're gonna have a similar argument to the Pokemon franchise. I don't think Mario Kart 8 is a spin-off. However, I do think Mario has spin-off games. I think I agree. I think Mario I tend to agree. Louis just mentioned Wario Whale. All those all those are spin-offs. I think all the main lane Mario games, including like Galaxy and Wonder and all that stuff, I think they're all not spin-offs. I don't think Mario Kart's a spin-off. They've had there's like six Mario Kart's or something at this point.

SPEAKER_00

Well, so Mario, I think we're on our ninth one, and you could you could consider Mario Kart 8 Deluxe a ninth one, and then we're on 10 with world. Um there's also like Mario Kart itself is big enough that there's almost spin-off games for Mario Kart. Like there's Mario Kart Tour, which I think was like the phone version.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's kind of like um obviously it's a bit closer, but it's kind of like the Forza series in Forza Horizon. It's like Forza Horizon was a spin-off game, but again, similar to Legends Archies, it was an open world version of Forza Driving, but now it's it's on its fifth game coming out this year. It's its own thing, it's bigger than the regular Forza part of the game. Forza Horizon is the bigger like franchise now.

SPEAKER_00

Um I I think something can be a spin-off and then lose its title as a spin-off when it becomes big enough to be its own thing. The spin-off has the direct connection to something that make that like kind of helps sustain it. Where Mario Kart 8, if I if there hasn't been a good Mario, like you know, 2D or 3D platformer for 10 years, but Mario Kart was still chugging them out, people still be buying Mario Kart. There's plenty of people who last time they played Mario was I don't know, like Super Mario Deluxe on the Wii, but they've been playing Mario Kart up up since then.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Mario Kart itself will say will like it'll keep itself going. We're like like you said, you take like a Mario Tennis. There's been a couple Mario Tennis games to where you could maybe say it's its own thing, but like if you took the Mar I don't want to say if you took the Mario characters out of it, because that's kind of the whole thing. But like if Mario the franchise itself wasn't that big, like if they were just putting out bad games, I don't know if you could consider it. I will say a lot of the non-mainline Mario games are so reliant on like, hey, look, you get to play as characters you know and like.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Like you could make Mario Kart with just non-Mario characters, like literally exactly the same, just take out the characters. It would not do as well.

SPEAKER_02

No, 100%.

SPEAKER_00

But I think Mario Kart has become a big enough franchise that it almost is its own thing. Also, Mario is such a it's it's kind of like the MCU in this way. Mario is just there's so many games and there's so much, so many characters and worlds, and games, and lore, and all of this that like it's almost hard to define the main line and what's a spin-off because there's so like many branches that it's like where's the main branch?

SPEAKER_02

It's a good point.

SPEAKER_00

There's almost a main trunk, and I think with Mario, it's hard to define what a spin-off is, and maybe that's where you have the hard time trying to define the spin-off, is where you come into like okay, well, there's I don't know, there's only you know two Mario soccer games, so it's not you know, Mario soccer isn't its own franchise. I might be wrong about that number, it's probably more than that, but like, you know, does Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games? Is that its own thing because they've made a couple of them? I don't know. At that point, you almost just say most things are like most Mario things aren't necessarily full-on spin-offs because there isn't a defined main branch at this point. I don't know. That one's a little harder for me to say because it's just grown, it's almost grown into a world rather than a main line.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, pr pretty much.

SPEAKER_00

I think you can argue the 3D and 2D platformers could be the main line of like Galaxy, Sunshine, Odyssey, then you got like Wonder, uh 3D world. I don't know, there's a ton of Mario.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like instead of instead of the the analogy of like a main branch and then branches you know coming off of it, it almost feels like with a thing this big or like with the MCU, you need more of like like a like a like a solar system like orbit. You have like the sun in the middle, which is like the main Mario, like Mario 1. Yeah, and then how close the planets orbit to it is kind of how important it is to the franchise. You have like Mario Kart, which would be like you know, Venus or then you have Mario Tennis or baseball, which is like Pluto. It's like it is still a part of the solar system, but it's kind of forgotten, and not no one really cares that much about it.

SPEAKER_00

It's a little further out.

SPEAKER_02

You have a few people that are like, you know, Pluto needs to be a planet, and then you have other people that are just like uh who cares?

SPEAKER_00

Whatever, who cares?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I I feel like that for something this big, I feel like you need more of a system like that rather than just like the branches. Because it does get very complicated.

SPEAKER_00

But then at what point, what is the spin-off at that point?

SPEAKER_02

I was gonna say, um you can also include like with the analogy, like planets and the moons. So you could have like Jupiter's a lot of moons. You could have Jupiter be Jupiter, a big planet, being like Mario Kart as a franchise, and all the moons all different variations of it, all different like sequels within there. So Mario, so you could say Mario Kart as a franchise is a spin-off of the mainline Mario game, but then it's also its own entity in its own right as well, with all its little bits, sequels coming off of it.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. Mario's weirdly hard because there's just so much that it's like, but again, there's not like a main line, like this is Mario, because at this rate, they're just a company that puts out a bunch of games. Yeah, it's similar with Mario Kart Mario Kart World coming out is just as big as Mario Wonder coming out. Honestly, I'd argue Mario Kart World coming out was bigger than Mario Wonder. Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_02

I thought I I don't think we're ever gonna get to the bottom of Mario um franchise sucks. Let's move on.

SPEAKER_00

Uh let's move on. Uh number four, Tales from the Borderland. I actually think this is a good example of a spin-off game because A, I do like, I don't think it's a prerequisite, but I like the idea that the spin-off is also not kind of the same thing. The gameplay is completely different, it's a teltell game. But it's within the universe, and I think that's a portion of this, is it's like it's doing something different from the main thing. It's a Telto game rather than a shooter. Yep. So I think this is a great example. It's different. I think if you just had the Telltale game, maybe if you're a Telltale fan, you'll play it. But like you're not sitting here going like, oh man, this this is cool. Like it it's probably a lot of people that play Borderlands is playing the Borderlands Telltale game.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um or people that really like the Telltale stu like gameplay itself, they might do that. Um I don't I don't know. I I think this fits their definition perfectly. I don't actually have that many notes. Uh number three, Final Fantasy Tactics. This is another one that I agree with. Because honestly, same thing as the last one. It took a game that has a certain gameplay, and it took the world and then made a completely different gameplay. And I'd say that's a spin off.

SPEAKER_02

I've looked ahead. I think these front three, we don't have much to say on because we've never played them, but they all look to be pretty much good spin-offs. Like Final Fantasy Tactics is like the JRPG, turn it into like a I don't even know what type of game it's meant to be. It's a weird XCOM tactic game thing where you like assign troops to like areas and they they watch over people and fight, I think. Uh number two is Persona again, but this time it's not just a regular game, it's a it's a it's a persona dancing game. Yeah. Where the where you just you just have the characters and they and you just make them dance and get points. Yeah that's that's a that's a spin-off. And then the last one is Pillars of Eternity, which is oh no, it's Avowed. So Avowed is a spin-off of Pillars of Eternity? Uh apparently. Didn't know that. Yeah, don't know what Pillars of Everything is. I don't know of much. I don't know of Pillars of Eternity. I know Avowed was like meant to be one of the Skyrim killers, and it just wasn't. Um I don't think it was bad, but it just like again we talked about this. It wasn't Skyrim. I don't think you can kill Skyrim in terms of like making making a game the same. You can make a game different that's better, like Baldur Gate 3 or Elden Ring are probably objectively better, but like you can't you can't kill that thing. It's it's too weird. Um spin-off as well. So the list overall, they have some hits and then some really big misses. Like I I still like uh Mario Kart and World of Warcraft and Red Dead, I think are the three that are just like, what are we doing? These are clearly just not spin-off games whatsoever. And the thing is I think part of I think for like some of them, like the Sims, like they could have put the Sims 2 castaway, which is like a I think it might technically be a DLC, but it's like a version of the Sims 2 I played as a kid where your Sim gets washed up on a desert island and you have to survive as a castaway. And it was an awesome game. That's a spin-off. I I think it's a spin off, yeah. And they just they put the regular Sims 4 on there instead.

SPEAKER_00

It's like, I mean, sure, technically, but like really it's really hard to say something is a spin-off when it is both the successful thing that you were making at the time and the fourth entry in a series. It gets really hard. I I think I think it has to be significantly less successful than it's its supposed mainline or the thing it spun off of for you to have multiple entries and then it not be its own thing.

Other Lists and Final Thoughts

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Uh another I'm looking at other lists. Another big spin-off um is actually Apex Legends spin-off Titanfall.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. I think I would say proper spin-off because completely different or different thing. Uh, it is very successful though, and that comes back to my thing. However, I would agree spin-off. The reason I say it's still a spin-off is I think some of our metrics' popularity, some of our metrics' longevity. There's only one apex.

SPEAKER_02

Not I wouldn't say longevity, I'd say the amount of games have been around for a while. Um, but yeah, it is so there's there's two Titanfall games, it's one Apex Legends games. They are separate enough, but it is tied to the universe. But it's also not like it's not like it's not it's not called Titanfall Apex Legends, it's just Apex Legends. It's not so obviously a spin-off, but there are like hints within the game that it's in the same universe. I think it's like either prequel or sequel, it's it's it's somewhere. Um it's somewhere in the timeline. And I think that I think it's a pretty reasonable spin-off uh example. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking at lists Mario's number one.

SPEAKER_00

And also to put it in there, Titanfall was also successful, and that's again where it's hard, where it's like when you have one game that is somewhat successful, and then you make another game that's way more successful, and then that becomes the franchise, then it's not a spin-off, it's its own franchise. Whereas Apex came off of something that was successful. I'd argue Apex is probably more successful than Titanfall, although I do remember Titanfall being pretty popular.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know, I think it's very close.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. I think right now there are probably more people that play Apex and play Titanfall. I think Titanfall was still pretty big and people played it for a while. I'm just saying there's probably more people now that play Apex. But I think it's they're similar enough that you can say it's a spin-off where like if Apex Okay, it is all a mob.

SPEAKER_02

I think at that peak they're pretty close.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I would agree. Um I'm trying to think of like a small game, but of course that's difficult to do. Uh you know, if I don't know. I don't I actually don't know. I don't I'm just trying to think of an analogy, and I'm trying to pick a f a small game, and that's just a difficult uh thing to do while also being r relatable. I don't I don't know. It's like if Apex spun off of something that was like tiny, then I'd be like, yeah, no, Apex is just its own thing. But Titanfall is big. So is Apex. Apex is bigger now. But I don't think Titanfall, it's not like Titanfall was like nothing. I don't know that many people that played Red Dead Revolver. I'm sure when it came out people played it, but like so many people who played Red Dead one. I'd maybe give you that Red Dead one is a spin-off. The instant there's Red Dead 2, it's not a spin-off, it's its own thing. Oh god.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Is it just No, it is it's not part of the main like eight games, nine games, so like spin-off, but like I don't know. Um High Rule Wall High Rule Warriors is a spin-off.

SPEAKER_00

I would say that's a spinoff.

SPEAKER_02

Of Dynasty Warriors?

SPEAKER_00

Is that a game?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It was inspired by the Dynasty Warriors series.

SPEAKER_00

Apparently. Oh, I meant more like it's a spin-off of Zelda.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, they're they're saying it's a spin-off of Dynasty Warriors.

SPEAKER_00

That's I know what they're trying to say, but that's not right.

SPEAKER_02

And I've I've seen two different websites say this as well, by the way.

SPEAKER_00

That's a weird it's it's this probably the same style as Dynasty Warriors, but it's a spin-off of Zelda because it's a fucking Zelda game.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, I'm not okay. I'm I'm I think I'm gonna come up with another criteria for spin-offs. Okay, don't know if this one this is one that I might agree with, but I don't know if everyone will. I don't think it's a spin-off if you're playing as the same main character. I agree. Because one of them is Mega Man X is a spin-off of Mega Man. And I'm like, well, is it though? Or is it just more see that this is where we're gonna go into apparently it's a different Mega Man, but you're still a Mega Man, so uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. I would say that's where it's more a side game than it is a spin-off. I'll give you a Spider-Man Miles Morales. It's. I see that as more of a side game. Really, it's kind of more like a mainline game. They did a weird thing where they're like, guys, the game is smaller. It's not gonna cost as much. It's only$10 less. But they're like, it's not gonna cost as much, honestly, but it's not like Peter Parker.

SPEAKER_02

That shit feels more like a DLC than a game, I'm gonna be real.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I would agree with that. I and that's the thing. I think some of these definitions might be like, well, is that a s is that a spin-off, or is that just a DLC?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. But um the reason why I'm complaining about this list, like to in my opinion, the most egregious one. Uh they're saying I I I don't okay, let me let me read this quickly. I don't get it wrong with what they're saying, because it sounds bad.

SPEAKER_00

I'm so curious. I do think like the main character. I think either the gameplay has to be drastically different, or you have to it has to be about different characters.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I think I think what number seven on CBR.com, best spin-off game all time ranked. I think what they're trying to say is that Tony Hawk's Underground is a spin-off of Tony Hawk's Pro Segator. How? Which, like, you're playing you're playing as the same main character, it's basically the same thing. It's just like I don't know, man. I don't know if I agree with that one being a spin-off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and then they go Luigi's Mansion next, which I think is a spin-off, so that's fine. I'd say that's a spin-off because it's the main character in Mario games, you'll never guess this, is Mario. Crazy. So a game where Luigi is a main character is a spin-off game. That's where I think a lot of the like Mario tennis and Mario thing, where it's like they're kind of spin-offs, but they still kind of got Mario I think calling Tony Hawk's underground a spin-off is like calling Mario Galaxy a spin-off.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Which I just think it is.

SPEAKER_00

A different flavor of but it's yeah, because it's it's the same thing, just like slightly different criteria.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, like uh number five is Persona 5, once again, we already talked about that. Number four is Falls of Horizon, which we talked about.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh number three, Fallout New Vegas. A spinoff of the Fallout franchise. I also don't agree with that.

SPEAKER_00

I just see Fallout New Vegas as a mainline game. I understand it's not within the Fallout 1, 2, 3, 4. I understand it was made by a different uh company. It's it's basically a main, it's like it's the same gameplay loop, it's the same universe, they feel the same, they play the same. The other thing with Fallout series is if they had one main character, one, two, three, and four, and then Fallout New Vegas was a different main character, I'd go, cool, yep, that's a spin-off, that makes sense. There's there's a new main character every time because it's a fucking RPG.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, I think I think I'm gonna have another criteria for spin-off. And with these criteria, for me, it's not necessarily whether they it's not like a yes or no, do they meet this criteria? It's kind of like they have to have a certain amount of these or all these different criteria to a certain degree. They can't be too popular, they can't have too many games, they can't uh have the main character be too prominent in the spin-off. I also think for a game to really be a spin-off, I think the gameplay needs to be slightly different. I could I don't think because Fallout New Vegas is the same gameplay pretty much as three and four. I don't think it's I think the gameplay needs to be different to some degree, like inherently. Like like Forza Horizon is different to Forza uh Motorsport because it's open world. That's like a significant change in the gameplay. Yeah. Enough that you can consider it a spin-off. Fallout New Vegas is not a spin-off, it's just a different game. Um number two is The Sims, which again I think we talked about it. I think it started as a spin-off, but I think because of its popularity and the amount of games it has now, I don't think it can be considered one anymore.

SPEAKER_00

It becomes its own thing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you wouldn't go like, oh hey, check out the Sims, it's a really cool spin-off of Sim City. No one's ever saying that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, maybe when the first one came out, yeah, but not people are saying it, but like right now, at a point in time, it it could have been determined as a spin-off, but it is not now a spin-off.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and then number one is Mario Kart on that list.

SPEAKER_00

It it again, I feel like Mario Kart is like at a point in time, Mario Kart was a spin-off. We have reached the point where Mario Kart is played enough and has had it's enough of its own games that it is become its own thing. If you don't play mainline Mario games, you're still pr you might still be picking up Mario Kart. Like those aren't going to be necessary. If you got attached to Mario in some form in your life, it could be through Mario Kart, it could be through Super Smash Bros. It could be through a mainline Mario game. Maybe you really played like Mario and Sonic at the 2012 London Olympics. All of those you know, can make it so that you wanna play it. So like it's be it's just become its own thing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm looking at another list now. Number seven on this list, they have Donkey Kong Country as a spin-off. Which of Donkey Kong? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Cause like the gameplay is different, but no, if they're singing spin-off of Mario, but Mario is a spin off of Donkey Kong in the first place. So like it's just it's just a a perfect circle, just like rotating back and forth. I could see it, but again, like I mean, obviously the original Donkey Kong is pretty popular and and and uh you know people play it and everyone knows it, but like I don't know, I still think Donkey Kong Country. It's again it's where I it's where I said earlier where it was like it's slightly confusing when it's like it's spun off, but it is not a spin-off.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I don't think it's really possible to have a super hard definition because it is a difficult thing. There's a lot of different factors that go into it. I just think when you're s uh I think I think it's very obvious when something isn't a spin-off. Like Mario Kart, I just it's not a spin-off. I don't know if I consider it a spin-off anymore. It just is its own franchise completely. Same with Sims. Don't if I agree with it.

SPEAKER_00

That's partially why I think this list is incredibly hard to make. Because if you look at it and go, what are the best spin-offs? You look at if something is so good that it makes a top 10 and it spun off, it probably continued to grow and become bigger and make more games if it, you know, if it spun off long ago enough. Like, you know, if it's a recent spin-off, that's a that's a different thing. But like if you're trying to make like oh top 10 spin-offs of all time, all of them are probably things that they spun off, they were definitely a spin-off at a point in time, but they became so good they stopped being a spin-off. I think if you want to talk, you couldn't you can't say Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is a spin-off. It's not Mario Kart the first Mario Kart, I will give you the argument that it's spin-off. Because it spun off. The eighth game in a franchise isn't a spin-off at that point, it's just in a franchise.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well Chad, all this talking about spinning off and and spin has has got me thinking about uh Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. You won't get the reference, but it's it's the power system. It's the power system, it's one of the power systems in part seven, which episode one got released on Netflix about a week and a half or two weeks ago. And we don't know when the fuck episode two is coming. Uh they they just they just don't want they just won't tell us. Um so this is the second time, the second Jojo part in a row where it's been handled by Netflix and they've fucked the release schedule royally. It happened with part six, Stone Ocean. They released it in three parts, but each part had like a nine-month gap between them or something. Oh uh, so I I never finished it when it originally came out. I finished it recently in in anticipation for this new one, part seven Steel Ball Run, where there are spinning balls uh and horses. And episode one came out, it was 40 minutes, it was a real good, and everyone was like, Okay, cool, we're we're getting we're getting peak, because this is considered to be one of the best uh parts of Jojo's. It's like very, very well loved. And Netflix just went, you know what? We're gonna edge you guys. We don't want you to have fun. So uh they said episode two, we don't know when it's coming out, and I to this day I still don't think we know. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Because Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is originally, I mean still is, but like it's Japanese. Yes, yeah, and then now Netflix is handling it, but is it still mostly Japanese made?

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, I think all the animation and stuff is still run in Japan, it's still by the same studio like Netflix is the people putting it out. Yeah, Netflix has basically just bought the rights to a lot of anime in recent years, and it's like they've bought the rights to at least part of the rights to like One Piece, they've been airing like the new seasons of One Piece, doing it with Jojo since part six. But yeah, so episode one came out uh March 19th, and episode two has just not been announced. And if you're on TikTok in any sort of anime sphere, every single comment section has this one image of the main character Johnny. It's like it's like really darky. He has red like demon eyes, basically him looking angry, and under like every Netflix comment section and under every anime comment section, you'll see one of these images because JoJo fans are losing their fucking shit. Because I mean, why wouldn't you? Like super hyped up part of an anime, it comes out, and then they're like, Well, uh you're not getting any more. Like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00

It's uh it's ridiculous. I feel like the culture in like anime in Japan, too, is very much like, no, I have to put this out, like I have to keep up because they have like seasons and they have a schedule where it's like usually when they're putting what you know, they're they're maybe not putting stuff out every season, you can't necessarily ask them for that. But once they hit a season that they're supposed to be putting stuff out, they're putting stuff out once a week, as it should be. Like, it's and obviously again, this is where Netflix comes into play, but it's not like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure doesn't have a shit ton of money and can put stuff together. I know you know you can't necessarily rush art, but like you can't have everything done at it. Hell, you can even I would rather you make me wait a year, but then you have all of the episodes done than be done with one episode, put it out and be like, ah shit, actually, I'm not ready. And it's not even like, oh man, we're still working on it. Like, I don't know, it's gonna be in four weeks. It's just I don't know, I'm not gonna tell you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so like that's the thing. Like, Jojo's is a massive series, one of the biggest manga and anime series out there. It's been bought up by Netflix, they have the money and time to just like wait and have it all prepared. Because I like people will admit it's a difficult part to animate. Animating horses is not easy. It it it they have to use a lot of CG to make it look seamless, and and doing CG making it look good is really difficult in anime style. So, like that, it's uh difficult. No one's gonna no one's saying that it's not difficult to do, but it uh what you said was perfect. I would have much rather wait until 2027 for them to just release it all at once because you release one episode, everyone gets super hyped, and then you have to wait three, five months for the next one. It kills all hype, completely kills it. Again, happened with Stone Ocean, which people thought was a good part, and then it just completely killed the hype of it. Again, I stopped watching it like 13 episodes in. I went back and rewatched it. There's 38 episodes, and I just had to I they just came out like nine months apart each time for some fucking reason. But it just like it killed any sense of like hype for the entire thing, and they're doing the same one with this one again. I think Netflix are just very easily the worst one of the big streaming services from from what I've seen. They consistently delay shows, they cancel things after a season if they've performed just sort of averagely. I was talking on live stream, yes, uh, a few days ago. I think I've talked about in the podcast as well. There was like a zombie show called Daybreak uh that came out in like 2019 or something that was really, really unique. It had like eight episodes, and every second episode you were in a perspective of a different character in like the main crew, and depending on the perspective of the character, the visual effects, music, and cinematography was different based on their personality. It was it was so it was so unique and well done. And they just canned it after a season for like no reason. Uh same with uh Chaos, which was a show about like the ancient Greek gods or uh like come like in Earth and you had uh Jeff Goldblum as like Zeus, or or I think Zeus, yeah. Um really cool concept. I watched one episode, then saw that it got cancelled like like a week after coming out. So I was like, well, I'm not gonna watch the rest of the season now because there's no fucking point.

SPEAKER_00

Um there is Netflix has a lot of good, like kind of adult animated shows that I've watched that I've really enjoyed, and then I'm like, oh, this was made five years ago. Oh, there's only two seasons that clearly are not making any more. And it's like you have this, and yet we got five seasons of Stranger Things over ten years. I know it made a lot of money that made sense to continue, and it was Netflix's flagship thing, blah blah blah, whatever. Gim if something is good, stop fucking canceling it.

SPEAKER_02

Chad, I am I am I didn't even watch Stranger Things, I didn't care for it. I am fine with it getting five seasons. We got five seasons of Emily in Paris, which for reference so true. Full reference is a show so bad that the Ukrainian government sent a cease and desist to the company and then an entire award show. I think it was like the Golden Globes, got cancelled because of the show. It was like there was so much racism and xenophobia and sexism and so much shit in the show that it got an actual country's governor or uh president to write a like formal complaint to the studio, and it got three seasons after that, and we and we can't get JoJas on time. What the fuck?

SPEAKER_00

And I doubt that they're gonna stop. The thing is, I think a lot of people watch that fucking show.

SPEAKER_02

They probably do, but it it it's ass. I watched so I watched like a document uh YouTube like review on it of season one and two, and I was like, there's no way it's this bad. I watched season one, I couldn't I watch episode one of season one, and it ends with like the the end of episode one, season one is like she's in Paris, Emily, and her her boyfriend is in New York or something, and she's already like flirting and like checking out guys in episode one, and then the episode ends with her on FaceTime call with her boyfriend using her vibrator having phone sex with him, and then her power goes out and she gets annoyed because her phone dies or something. I'm like, what is this show, bro?

SPEAKER_00

It's I feel like it's because here's the deal I've seen some of it. Not because I was watching it, but because it was on. I think it's just purely like a guilty pleasure like show of like, oh, this is stupid, but uh ha ha romance or whatever. I'm sure but I feel like when you I think it's that I look, I love shitting on it. It's a stupid ass show. When you take it seriously whatsoever, you just it just sucks. I just I think the uh it's almost like reality TV, but I'm less mad at reality TV than I am at this. It's there to be stupid, yeah, and to be like, oh my god, the drama, like but in my opinion, I would rather reality TV because while it's low bar, that's it is what it is. It is low bar, like lowbrow TV. They're not doing that series of things, they're creating drama for the sake of drama, and that's what it is. But like I mean, it's scripted to some degree, but a lot of times it's usually all right. Here's a situation, all right. I didn't need you to blow up at someone, they're not reading a fucking teleprompter. Yep, they're coming up with this shit on their own, maybe it's practiced, whatever. Someone had to like write Emily in Paris.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they had to write Emily. Get a lot of places to shoot shots and everything. Like, yeah, they have they have the money and resources to put into these other shows with interesting ideas and good writings, and they always can after a season if it performs slightly subpar. You know, like Breaking Bab is gonna get cancelled after one season? And the Office US? Yeah, the Breaking Bab apparently is meant to get cancelled after like one Friends was meant to get cancelled after one season at one point, and they let it go on. I mean, I'm and then they developed and got good. Obviously, that's not gonna happen for every show, but Netflix is so quick to cancel everything. Whereas compared to other studios, like other streaming services, I feel like Amazon Prime and Apple TV are really, really good at like saying, okay, we're gonna give this show like three good seasons. You look at like Invincibles on season four now, which we can talk about how the animation somehow looks worse than last season. Um haven't watched an episode, but the apparently episode four was like the lowest rated one of all time, so looking good. Um they gave that like four seasons. The boys is getting season five. You look at uh Apple TV, you have shows like Foundation, which are based off Isaac Asmanov's novels, that's getting a season four this year. Look at From, which is a made by the same director of Lost and is really good, that's getting a season four. And these aren't shows you see popping up everywhere on TikTok, they're not on ads everywhere, they're not the most huge hugely popular things in the world, but they're just letting them breathe and like have a life. Uh as well, Apple TV recently got the rights to Brandon Sanderson's books, Mistorn and the Way of Kings, like big, big franchises. And they said, Okay, we're gonna give you complete creative freedom. You get like three movies for Mistborn and a whole TV series for The Way of Kings. They're just letting him do that off the bat. Whereas Netflix, then I guarantee Netflix would be like, Alright, here's your budget, we'll give you one season, see how it goes. If it performs well, we might we might do another. Yeah, like it just uh Netflix is killing art. Fuck you.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, I I do think like give it at least I don't know, if it's really bad after two seasons, get it. But if like if people seem to enjoy it, but it's maybe just not getting the ratings, give it like another season.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because like the thing is there are so many shows as well that like have revisionism and have people go back to them after five years and get really popular all of a sudden. Or like there are some shows that like there are there are so many shows that peak at like season three, like community, community's good in season one and two, but season three is fantastic. Breaking bad peaks probably season five. Like, you need to give shows time to build.

SPEAKER_00

I'm I'm re-watching The Office right now. Uh based on just solely season one, it's not a good show. I'm in season three right now, I'm enjoying it a lot more. I like the characters a lot more. They've developed, they've kind of they've gotten their like shtick together. Uh, there's a lot more charisma between all of them. A lot of the jokes carry a little bit more. If you didn't let The Office get a second season, it would not become like the mega sitcom that it did. Its first season is not that good. They were trying to figure out what they were. I feel like Parks and Rec is kind of similar. I really like Parks and Rec. I think it was a really good show. The first like two seasons, I don't think they're bad, but like they don't really hit their stride until the third season when they get Adam Scott and the other guy who I'm blanking on. I can see his face. You know, you know what I'm talking about. Chris Pratt? No, yeah, they always had Chris Pratt. God damn it, what's Roblo! They got Roblo. I don't know why it was blanking on. Um when they got those two, they like they really fucking popped off. But it took they they came in at the end of season two.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You don't let it happen. You don't strike it's it's like the image of the guy who's like mining and then he like turns away, but there's diamonds just on the other end. Uh-huh. Netflix, sometimes you gotta keep digging a little longer. Look, at some point you've dug too long.

SPEAKER_02

I also feel like a little bit don't know if this analogy works, but I'm gonna go with it. I feel like the way that like on-demand streaming shows work is kind of the same reaction that we have with like dating apps, where it's like, uh, if this show isn't perfect, I'll swipe and find the next one that is. Yeah. Netflix are like and you can just keep swiping constantly. You can just like you like you just keep trying to find the best thing. Like, if there's nothing wrong with a show just being like a solid, like six, seven out of ten, and just like a few people enjoying it. Not everything has to be perfect in every single way, and I feel like that's what social media and dating apps have done to people's brains as well. It's like you don't need to find the absolute perfect part in every single way. That's probably not gonna happen to most people, sure. But like you find someone who's like pretty much good in it, like in most situations, at least maybe not for life hard, but even for dating, like just for like going on a date, you don't need to find the father. One to go get a coffee, you know. It's the same with Netflix. They they they only seem to continue putting out shows that are getting like number one on the fucking this week top ten shows. Like they only care about the ones that end up there rather than just like good TV, because there's so many good shows that are just like not known that well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I agree. Netflix get it together. Also, Invincible's worst episode is still ranked like a 7.2.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's not it's not terrible. I think Which is by no means bad. I'm just very spoilt watching anime and like stuff like Arcane because Invincible looks it's not it doesn't look bad by itself, it looks bad in comparison. If you when I watch Invincible, there's very few moments where I'm like ill, that animation. There's like one or two scenes I've seen where I was like, oh that was rough. But for the most part, it's fine. It's just when you when you finish watching like an actual like good animation studio, mainly the Japanese, they they got their shit together, even though their workers are underpaid and overworked. Uh and you go to Invincible where it's PNGs floating around, you're like, uh well, I think as well, I know Invincible is a bigger budget than almost every anime. Like, their budget is probably fucking huge, and they don't do much with it.

SPEAKER_00

No, they do a lot with their budget. It's all voice actors.

SPEAKER_02

Voice actors, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's all their voice actors, which uh here nor there. I don't know. We have opinions. I think we've already touched on it, but their their animation could be better from a guy who doesn't watch a whole lot of anime. I'm fine with it. It is fine. I see the point. It's serviceable, it's not bad at any point. There are definitely points where it's lazy. However, my argument towards it is if you give me a couple lazy episodes where like the story is still good, there's still some good action, but there's just some points where it's like it is clearly kind of just a PNG moving. Um, but you give me that last two episodes of the season that look really fucking good. Fine by me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And the thing is, anime does do that as well. They will have like the big fights look way better, like in in One Piece uh in Wano, which is one of the arcs. The arc looks really good overall, but the fights with the Zoro and King and Luffy and uh Kaido look sensational. The thing is, I just think the floor of animation for anime is a lot higher than the floor for western animation. Western animation is a lot lower of a floor because I think there's something about the way that cartoons are done. I think they don't do as much like shading and shadows, which makes it just inherently look a lot more flat and PNG like. Like you can still have PNGs, but with the right shading, you can make it look a lot better uh in a lot of cases. I think I've seen when Invincible Season 3 came out, there were a lot of people that were like doing shading on the on like some scenes, and like it looks significantly better just with like that like slight bit more effort that they could put in. Uh, I think that's where my gripe is. Like, I I know they have the budget and time to put in a little bit more effort, but they just decide not to. So they could just do a little bit. Yeah, it's all it is though.

Outro

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, I'd agree. Um, well, Dan, I think this takes us to the end of our episode. Yeah, thank you all for listening. Uh leave leave some leave some comments about what how you know how's our definition of spin-offs? Do you agree? Do you disagree? Are you know are some of the games you said are spin-offs? Are they not spin-offs? Are we being too harsh on the definition of a spin-off?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, to be fair, we probably shouldn't be a spin off game. We probably shouldn't be too harsh on it because we inherently are a spin-off of the Lankman Dan channel.

SPEAKER_00

So like one could argue until we become our own thing. But I would say at this moment in time, spin-off. We get super big, maybe not a spin-off anymore.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. All right. Uh help us become not a spin-off by hitting that subscribe button, liking the video, and sending us$500,000. Thank you very much.